Public opinion on the Dutch government's collapse due to immigration policy is divided, with mixed emotions. Many express relief and happiness over the downfall, criticizing the government's previous policies, particularly around immigration and far-right influences. Some support Geert Wilders and his stance on stricter immigration, believing it prioritizes national interests, while others criticize him as divisive and ineffective. Dissatisfaction with political instability and concerns over scapegoating immigrants for systemic issues are prevalent, alongside criticism of media portrayal of the situation.

Dutch Government

Geert Wilders

Immigrants

RandomCentipede387

Anybody with more than 5 brain cells has known this for years. 

[deleted]

Doesn't matter what country I'm in, and no matter the situation of the country, immigrants are too often the scapegoats and used for politics. It doesn't matter how nice, democratic the country or the party is, they will use immigrants to further their agenda. It's sickening

Objective_Pepper_209

Immigrants are the easiest thing to blame.  That's what politicians will always do and guarantee to get 40-50% of a population to believe that nonsense.

Damn, who would have guessed that not building houses leads to a shortage of houses? 

Certainly not the people who view housing as an investment, and the politicians who pander to them?

PindaPanter

As someone looking at coming to the Netherlands, part of my research to understand the housing market was to look back at what the government has said and done. In this case they have spent decades saying "if we dont build loads of houses there will be a housing crisis" and then they built much fewer houses than they said.

So its almost like they predicted it and their actions that caused it.

That said, given the higher wages in NL and the social housing I believe the prices can / will go higher. Randstadt isn't quite at London prices yet.

aNanoMouseUser

Of course it is. But dont let the right-wing idiots hear you say that, because then they'll get MAD and throw their shit at you like a monkey at the zoo.

steadwik

facts, since 1990 we have added 100% more houses than we have grown in terms of the population. In short the biggest effect currently is that we have a massive growth in 1 person households. Aka it's not the "brown people", it's your children, you, your parents and grand parents living alone that is "the problem".

Femininestatic

I lived in the Netherlands and I can solve your housing problem now: Get rid of registration. I was living happily in an unused art gallery in a park in Eindhoven but could not stay after 3 months because it was not officially a place to live. Then I met loads of local Dutch people who lived in such cottages and unofficial houses but put their family/parents as their residence. In normal countries my friend can just rent out a room to me - but in the Netherlands there is a fee for that. When I asked locals about how there were all these unused rooms, buildings, homes that no one could stay in if they did not have parents who lived there they told me it avoided 'overcrowding'. Overcrowding is how people live in the Western world with asset prices going to the moon. This article is stupid and this fix is simple: let everyone live in these extra spaces.

twot

Maybe build more houses? I know, must be a revolutionary idea...

Seriously? I thought we immigrants are the culprits. Like we don't pay enough tax. + We buy all the houses. Damn.

here4geld

Part of the issue here with the ‘migrants’ is that the we have a massive gap between the types of migrants who come in. We easily take in asylum seekers but we don’t make them useful to the country as soon as they come in. We shove them in some subpar housing and delay their ability to be productive in this country due to bureaucracy . Then we have the skilled migrants, for whom we make legal entry much harder and keep barking down their throats as to what an inconvenience they are, despite them contributing their skills and taxes( with or without the 30% ruling). There is no middle ground of migrants. 
Take Portugal in this case, they get a lot of shit for their visa processes and have housing issues, BUT they don’t try to chase away legal migrants; in fact they’ve created visa programs that attract migrants with various skills and/or money to spend. Some of these visas require them to make an investment in local companies or renovations that go into their cities and historic areas. Instead of chasing away useful migrants, they’ve attracted them. Over the next decade, I’m willing to bet that this would lead Portugal to be a more economically and culturally enriched country, with the younger demographics of migrants establishing businesses and families which keep the economy moving. This is such a contrast to the countries like ours, having this anti-migrant sentiment when we are responsible for the types of migrants we bring in. We have space for migrants but we mostly fill it up with a quality of migrants that we cannot and don’t make immediate use of. And then we complain migrants are the problem. That’s the truth.

Eighthfloormeeting

Well not to worry for those who do think immigration is the problem in NL. 

I am leaving back to my European country because i am sick of the Dutch treat. Many will follow. 

I worked my ass more than any dutch person in the  office and get the lowest pay of all colleagues. 
Rent is ridiculous and at the end of the month left with nothing. 

Reasoning is that the other persons have a longer time than me in the work market. They are older than me, work lease, earn more. And still complain. 

Fun part is that in any factory there are max 5% dutch. All others are expats. 

Because factory work is beneath a dutch educated person. 

I pay a lot in income tax, then i pay more because after a year the gov decided that i earned too much and i did not pay enough tax. That tax is taken by the company off my salary so how can i not pay enough? 

At the same time no buildings are built and if someone tries to build a 5 or 10 floor building, people jump out of their seats because they are loosing their view. 

Expats are the problem. Throw them out. Please do. I’d pay to see how this country would do without expats.

Gabriel1nSpace

But it's easier to blame immigrants. Dutch will never accept responsibility if they can demonize a ethnic minority for all their problems. Now it's immigrants in general. Couple of decades ago everything was the fault of the Turks. Couple of generations ago they blamed jews. Nothing has changed.

mckroket1965

That's not true. As an international student I purposely came to the Netherlands to buy all of your houses thanks to my 84 euros per month of belastingdienst allowance

gianlu_world

They obviously both contribute. Why is this so hard to accept?

If I need 10 extra houses and I build 10 then I still need 10 extra houses if 10 more people come.

If I didn't build 10 houses then I also still need to build 10.

A - B = C

Additional-Bee1379

&gt;This crisis has had a long gestation over two or more decades, and has many structural causes including lack of adequate land for new affordable housing, lack of regulation of the social housing providers, introduction of income limits for eligibility, lack of rent caps or their enforcement in the private rental sector, insufficient attention to the role of speculation and large investors in the real estate market, and insufficient protection of renters’ rights including through eviction prevention.

Right. But this is not just on the Dutch government, unless you blame it for the policy being 'just don't do much' (which, yes, sure, also true, liberalism and everything).

Because so many countries other than the Netherlands with different governments deal with a very similar housing crisis to The Netherlands. More than ever it all seems to be happening in lockstep and it's not slowing down. This is a global thing now.

So what I want to know is: why? Why now? It's obviously not one single thing, and I would like to see an analysis of this whole system from a broad perspective because it seems incredibly important.

themarquetsquare

Immigration has nothing to do with policy?

Xifortis

"He pointed out that over half of all immigrants coming to the Netherlands are from EU countries. Only 11 percent are asylum seekers."

But the important factor is net migration here; as asylum seekers leave the country much less often their total contribution to net migration is over 25 percent. (source: https://www.wyniasweek.nl/asiel-draagt-minstens-een-kwart-bij-aan-de-bevolkingsgroei-twee-keer-zoveel-als-meestal-wordt-gesuggereerd/)

"According to him, migrant workers, asylum seekers, and undocumented migrants don’t pose competition to the Dutch when it comes to access to adequate housing."

Assylum seekers get priority on social housing; so they directly compete with the Dutch. In 2022 23 out of 7000 Amsterdam homes went to people without priority (source [https://nos.nl/regio/noord-holland/artikel/353774-sociale-huurwoning-zonder-urgentie-of-voorrang-vrijwel-onmogelijk-in-amsterdam](https://nos.nl/regio/noord-holland/artikel/353774-sociale-huurwoning-zonder-urgentie-of-voorrang-vrijwel-onmogelijk-in-amsterdam) )

Between 2001 and 2010 migration contributed to a net growth of 12261 people  
Between 2011 and 2020 that was 575571  
Between 2021 and 2023 that was 472891

(source https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/visualisaties/dashboard-bevolking/bevolkingsgroei/groei#:\~:text=De%20bevolking%20van%20Nederland%20groeide,gemeld%20vertrek%20naar%20het%20buitenland.)

You don't need a math degree to see that immigration has been growing over the past decade and that contributes to pressure on the housing market.

This UN commissioner cherry picks data, misrepresents facts and overall comes with a pretty disbalanced report.

The truth in the matter is that governmental agencies are recommending a maximum of (net) 50k immigrants per year as the perfect balance for economic growth and keeping things manageable (source: https://nos.nl/artikel/2505011-advies-aan-regering-matig-migratie-maar-voorkom-krimp-bevolking) 

In the past 13 years the population grew by 80650 per tear due to immigration instead. Had we stuck to the 50k number our economy would still have been fine and with 398.462 people less migrating in that period the current shortage of 400k homes would be drastically less as well.

lykia1991

As a future immigrant to the Netherlands, it shocks me that this is even debatable!

We're bringing our capital. Our work, our resources.

It makes no sense that we're to blame when we're practically investing in the country we admire.

giomaxios

SamMerlini

Perhaps also the fact that some investors are allowed to buy 200 accommodations in the same city is contributing to this. No one needs 200 houses. There should be a damn limit!

Dizzy_Garden252

Nobody thinks they're the problem. But could be a solution. You dont accualy need new houses if the population wont grow.

Good_Morning_Every

This is an idiotic comparison, it only resonates because people think 'I agree because I'm not racist!' and don't think about it. It's very easy: policy is a concept. An immigrant is a person. A person is a physical entity, policy is not. Policy does not live in a house. A person lives in a house. A person does not live in policy.

Policy is a means to influence both availability of housing and immigration. When people say 'not enough houses have been constructed!' are they blaming construction workers? Obviously not, they're blaming policy makers. This means that when people say 'immigration is too high!' they're also blaming policy makers, but somehow this always gets strawmanned into 'you're blaming immigrants!' No! Both housing and migration policies exist and can influence the housing crisis. 'but some people do blame immigrants!' yes but if you respond to everyone like they're that kind of person then that kind of person captures the debate. 

These are very simple concepts. People who don't understand this simply aren't able to add to the discussion.

MadeyesNL

Overpopulation is the number 1 cause of housing shortage here, of which immigrants are the main cause. If the Netherlands had never taken on immigrants, the population would have gradually gone back down to the manageable levels we saw in the 20th century because the native Dutch population is currently declining. Instead, we have immigrants coming in, which puts additional stress on an already stressed situation. Immigrants from within Europe drive up housing prices through competition, and they are often able to spend more since they pay less taxes. Immigrants that are less fortunate, like refugees, are granted social housing that could've gone to struggling Dutch people. They are also further driving up the population since they often have multiple children.   
   
You can't solve the housing crisis without doing something about immigration in all forms. We can't appartment buildings on every square meter, what kind of country would we be living in.

MingeExplorer

While immigration is a problem when it comes to certain ethnicities, when it comes to the housing crisis it’s got nothing to do with it. The key factor which actually caused this crisis is in fact the government’s socialist policies, which hasn’t been mentioned in that article at all. Supply- Demand. For years there’s been a much higher demand than supply. Why is the supply so low? Because the Dutch government requires investors, when building residential housing developments to designate 30% of their inventory to social housing. To the uneducated this seems like a great thing. “Wow we gonna force rich ppl to build housing for students and low income ppl”. But in reality it is a deterrence. Investors savvy enough to be able to raise funds and drop say 100 million into a housing project would not be stupid enough to agree to lose 30 million due to this bogus regulation. Instead they would park their funds in other countries with more business friendly policies.

ElderberryOne140

ooh a UN report on the housing crisis

&gt;*looks inside*

&gt;rent control 

wonderful 😊

Cledd2

If the Dutch people continue to let radical volkisch populists like Omtzigt mislead them into making a connection between expats and high housing costs, then the country will soon enough be left with thugs on fatbikes wielding machetes and waving Palestinian flags. Those guys will certainly not leave, but highly skilled migrants will.

LiveDiscipline4945

well I'd say that immigrants do have a part in this problem but they aren't the cause of the problem.
the  problem with immigrants is that they have contributed to the fast growth of our population which us at the highest point ever.
now the main problem like the article also refers to is government policy's and them not building enough houses due to those policy's

Jackright8876lwd

 Well yeah obviously. But that's not the reason PVV became the biggest.

Bapistu-the-First

Can I add that the VVD is to blame an additional 2 times compared to most other parties? Thank you!

DonutsOnTheWall

Of course we could build more housing, I don’t think the PVV’ers will argue, though they might argue with you about the reasons houses aren’t built. (Too much government regulations (nitrogen, permits) vs too little government action)

In their eyes that won’t make it any more sour that migrants get priority.  
It doesn’t change that the only reason we even needed those unbuilt homes is because migrants got here. The shortage is even more or less equal to net migration in recent years.  
It also doesn’t change that we have a shortage and without limiting migration us building more is still kind of ‘mopping with the tap open’. 

The PVV’ers aren’t arguing that we can’t build the homes. They’re arguing they don’t feel like a priority compared to migrants, especially refugees who they feel don’t contribute, don’t adjust and even contain bad apples that cause disturbances.

MacabreManatee

Lucade2210

Kzargid

Pitiful-Assistance-1

I don't know anyone who said it was the fault of immigrants. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but it does presupppose it is common which is insincere and only plays to people who already made up their minds. 

[We can just look at a graph and look at immigration since 2000](https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/dossier/asylum-migration-and-integration/how-many-people-immigrate-to-the-netherlands-#:~:text=In%202022%2C%20403%2C108%20persons%20immigrated,more%20than%20one%20year%20earlier). Obviously there is a trend. The question is what the impact of this trend is.

To-Art-Or-Not

gijsyo

neeleukdit

Same in every country that has the same complaints. 

Who doesn’t know this already though? Well perhaps if you are a moron.

Doesnt matter at all this topic, we need a fix not a diagnose idiots.

Dustypictures

Immigrant circlejerk says immigrants are not the problem based on an opinion piece by some bigot who shows in every way to not be an expert on our situation here. Color me surprised!

CampValuable5241

HELLO?!?!? I can’t believe this has actually to be spelled to everyone around here.

😵‍💫

LoyalteeMeOblige

Hey dutchies , just to say that today i got an social house in netherlands,  and we finally register. Another immigrant not welcome! XD

ExpensivePlankton953

As a political center left person i am still a little confused. I can't really find anything in the list of recommendations that would impactfully change anything. 

One of the points is that we could increase the size of the ministerie of housing. Also to "build more housing". Wich doesn't sound like it would change much. We all know we should build more housing. Does the recommendation say anything about how that would happen?

Could anybody correct me? I might have missed it while reading.

LeaverTom

This article is just another load of crap. Is the government responsible for the housing crisis? yes 100%. So what is this articles proposed solution? More government institutions! let's give the morons responsible for the problem more power. The housing crisis follows simple supply and demand economics and speculation. The government should have put much stricter caps on the amount of immigrants per year. im not saying stop immigration, obviously some immigration is a good thing, but most European countries think a lax system is necessary to invigorate population decline and pay pensions. The sad reality is immigration not producing the economic stimulus they were hoping for due to the cost of all the social programs required.

V1ct4rion

Peipr

No shit.

BUT, as someone who works with refugees for a living, this does mean that there is no flow of refugees to civilian life, as they will not be able to receive a house.

Many here do not want to state that our country is 'full', yet the average wait time for a refugee to have their first hearing with IND is 15 months.

Yeah, one year and a quarter. That is only for your first conversation.

Meaning that from the moment you got here, until you're a civilian, can take up to three years and even then there is no guarantee you will receive a house.

Aeren10

Jesus, for a long time people don't get the real issue. The expats specially the skilled migrants are contributing to the economy of Netherlands. They're here to work hard and serve specially tech companies. Unknown to many, expat life is also complicated due to migration (financial,adjustments,culture etc..). That is why 30% ruling is there to attract them. And for Christ sake, they don't have connection with student loans.

Flat_Drawer146

Im not used NL news cycle, but how likely is this report going to be formative on opinions of immigrants. I dont doubt the loudest idiots wont be moved by this.

Haar_RD

Unhinged reporting from an ivory tower. “These groups mostly find themselves at the bottom of society competing for housing which most Dutch citizens are either not eligible for or would not wish to move into”

I’d love to have my own home but waiting lists for social housing are at a minimum 10 years, more if you want to have somewhat of a choice. 

To many people, not enough houses. Immigrants are not THE problem but sure are a part of it.

Malnourished_Manatee

I'm not Dutch but I'm pretty sure that if I look into the population statistics I can find out that the immigration is the primairy propellant of population growth in the Netherlands, just like the rest of Europe. 

If you cannot build houses and you have open EU borders, goodluck getting a home. It is global gentrification at it's best.

But can't they then determine that because the current Government policy is bad, it is not currently viable to let refugees/economic migrants come here?

It surprises me they don't advise a full stop until the government policy has been improved.

sovietarmyfan

Anti immigratie beleid van de pvv heeft niet als hoofdreden een te kort aan huizen. Je moet het zien als meerder vliegen in 1 klap. Minder immigratie (met name uit Afrika en MO) is minder islamisering(een zeer intolerante ideologie), minder criminaliteit, minder problemen qua inburgering ivm grote kloof tussen westerse en islamitische cultuur, minder werklozen, minder huizen te kort, minder uitgaven aan gelukzoekers die hier komen uitkering trekken en ga zo maar door. En ja ik snap zelf ook wel dat er een huizen te kort is en dat immigranten daar niet de hoofdoorzaak van zijn. Heeft overigens ook met die geweldige beperkingen te maken die met name vanuit de linkse hoek opgelegd worden ivm klimaat (co2, stikstof etc.). 
Maar goed we zitten op Reddit, dus kom maar weer door met die minnetjes. Boeit me geen fuck 🥱

Immigrants may not cause the shortage of houses in the Netherlands, but the more people settle in the Netherlands, the more the shortage of houses becomes a problem. That is why immigrants are addingvupntobthe problem.

Interesting-Net-5000

I do not disagree that Putin is using already existing tensions in the West to further his goals, including immigration. I don’t quite know how he is doing that, but it is easy for me to imagine.

I will disagree with you on a point that maybe you will find unfair: it isn’t *just* Putin. The right-wing and far-right parties of Western Europe supports the Islamic extremist position that Muslims and non-Muslims cannot co-exist. In my country this has been a line that has existed ever since I grew up in the 90s. None of their doomsday scenarios came true. But it was all about destabilizing western liberal societies, because right-wing parties and far-right parties are fundamentally anti-western and anti-European. 

I will also disagree with you that the migrants who commit crimes or terrorism in Europe do so because they are bribed. Not saying it hasn’t happened, but I think we should look elsewhere. In my opinion, I think it is because the societies the migrants arrive in make terrorists out of them. There is something in European society that makes people violent. Part of the problem is economic suffering and a collective feeling of meaninglessness. We haven’t addressed this as a society in the West because we are ultimately hooked on consumerist culture, we don’t fight for meaningful things, we consume things and we consume relationships.

These are things that Putin would exploit, but I’m afraid that the problem lies not with him, it lies with ourselves.

Freudipus

Well actually Iran is a Shia Muslim theocracy and most Migrants to Europe are Sunnis, even if they wanted to go to Saudi Arabia, they would go as expats, if you think what they do to Pakistanis is bad, then you should see what they do to Egyptian expats, people who not only are from the same religion but the same race and language. Dictatorships aren't really great.  
  
But blaming Putin is really funny, the US is the one who destabilized the Middle East, invaded Iraq, backed extremists in Syria, protecting the Saudi Royal Family and Israel and caused the Iranian revolution in the first place, Russia isn't totally innocent but it didn't cause most the shit in the Middle East. Hell the FSB isn't that kind of criminal enterprise, that's the CIA's doing, the FSB might spy, kill or torture but they're not the CIA.

Acrobatic-Hippo-6419

I strongly suggest you educate yourself on islamic doctrine.


Read the hadiths, shaih bukharis in particular.
They detail in sparkling clarity how Islam is to be spread, and surprise surprise, it's exactly what you thought didn't make sense.


They come to Europe to overthrow Christianity and expand Islam.


That's the cold hard truth of it, and Islam doesn't hide it. 
None of this is hidden,  it's just westerners choose not to read it.


Once you do, your eyes will be opened.

Ok_Tennis_8622

to be fair, Europe really needs actual immigration policy, not just handing out asylum status to everyone who shows up without passports, and then have the human rights to have asylum application be processed for 20 years.

Madogson21

Usually when politicians say something like this, they will target regular migration (like international students and high-skilled workers coming from non-EU countries) instead of refugees. Targeting regular migration from non-EU countries is much easier because you just need to make domestic law stricter and there's not much legal hurdle. On the other hand, zero asylum seeker is difficult to implement without going against EU law, ECHR, and international law.

Affectionate_Cat293

**From The Telegraph's Europe Editor, James Crisp:** 

The Dutch king has sworn in former spy chief Dick Schoof as prime minister of a government promising to deliver the [Netherlands](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/netherlands/)’ “strictest-ever” immigration policy.

Mr Schoof takes over from [Mark Rutte](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/20/rutte-to-land-natos-top-job-after-lone-rival-drops-out/), the longest-serving prime minister in Dutch history, 223 days after Geert Wilders won a shock victory in an election that stunned Europe.

He presented his ministers in the Right-wing coalition to Willem-Alexander in the ornate “Oranjezaal” in the royal palace, with them each stepping forward to swear allegiance to the king and the constitution.

[Mr Wilders](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/05/16/dutch-government-set-for-immigration-showdown-with-eu/), the populist firebrand leader of the Freedom Party (PVV), was forced to shelve his ambitions to become prime minister to keep coalition talks on track.

There were fears his campaign promises to ban the Koran and hold a Nexit referendum on Dutch EU membership were too extreme.

Instead, the four coalition partners agreed their leaders would not be in government before compromising on Mr Schoof, 67, who previously ran the Dutch secret service.

Mr Wilders, who campaigned for “zero asylum seekers”, secured backing for a crackdown on asylum and migration from the pro-business VVD party, radical centrist NSC and farmers’ party the BBB.

The coalition has pledged a two-year asylum crisis act to drive down numbers arriving in the Netherlands and to demand an opt-out from EU asylum rules, which will put the new government on a collision course with Brussels.

It plans a maximum reduction in migrant numbers without giving a hard figure. The agreement includes austere reception centres, a hold on processing asylum applications and only temporary asylum being granted.

The 26-page coalition agreement, titled Hope, courage and pride, also calls for considering the idea of moving the Dutch embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

Seven youth branches of Dutch political parties, including the VVD and NSC, called on the new government to reconsider the asylum plans on Tuesday.

They said that the asylum crisis was actually a reception crisis caused by a staffing and housing shortage that left asylum centres overcrowded.

Amnesty International held a protest outside the royal palace as the ministers were sworn in.

**Article Link:** [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/07/02/new-dutch-pm-strictest-ever-immigration-policy/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/07/02/new-dutch-pm-strictest-ever-immigration-policy/)

TheTelegraph

Yay I sure do love being blamed for all your problems

-Sincerely, a romanian guy studying at a dutch university

DVDPROYTP

Doesnt mean much when the constitution, human rights, and international treaties that we signed dont allow for much stricter policies.

It’s already really difficult to get in here for anyone who isn’t an actual refugee or very valuable to our economy (expats). At most the people who follow family here will be blocked more often, but that will lead to only a couple hundred people less yearly.

FridgeParade

What would a "strictest-ever" immigration policy look like? 

* In 2022, 404k people immigrated to and 179k emigrated from the Netherlands, leaving a net migration of around 224 000 people. [Source](https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/dossier/asylum-
migration-and-integration/how-many-people-immigrate-to-the-netherlands-). For comparison, the net migration in 2003 consisted of 317 people. 

* Meanwhile, the local population declined and the population growth was entirely due to migration. [Source](https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2024/01/population-growth-slower-in-2023). 

This means that the group of people from outside the Netherlands are rapidly growing and the people whose families have lived there for generations will rather soon be outnumbered.

* **A strictest-ever immigration policy must be stricter than 2003, and as such would have a negative net migration.** In 2022, this would have meant that 224 000 immigrants should have been turned away. 

A dynamic system which allows 100 people to immigrate for every 110 people who emigrate could be one solution.

NorthernSalt

Seeing mostly non-dutch people celebrating and talking about this while being completely oblivious is so perplexing to me.

Is this how Americans feel? I'm sorry for my past transgressions.

trollrepublic

rejoice r/europe  
you are step by step getting what you dream about.

See you in 5 years when things got increasingly more shitty

pinot-pinot

Yeah, sure, I guess let's blame brown people again instead of actually fixing all the broken shit.

Now instead of living in a shit town with brown people, all of us not being able to afford shit you can instead live in a shit town with fewer brown people while still not being able to afford shit.

Puzzleheaded_Bed1337


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AutoModerator

Answer: the Dutch government system is a multiparty system. A ruling government is always a coalition of several parties. Whenever those parties can no longer agree or when one party pulls out, the government collapses. This means new elections are called for. 

Note that this is incredibly common. In the last 20 years, only one coalition lasted the full four years. It’s not really concerning and until a new government is formed, everything just sticks to the status quo. 

Also this particular party is a far right one, who only once before was allowed in the coalition (most other parties don’t want to govern with them) and they did the exact same thing that time. 

palcatraz

Answer: This is as full of an answer I can give without seeing the meme. 


Basically, the Dutch government is always a coalition government. This is for various historical reasons and because it's a representative democracy. So a situation like the US or the UK where there are two political parties that rule alone basically never happens. There's always compromise. 


Geert Wilders is a far-right anti immigration politician who makes a habit of saying controversial things. His political party was the biggest in the last election, and he formed a coalition with the established right wing party and two new right leaning parties. Wilders was considered to be too controversial to serve as prime minister or in any other official cabinet function. So he doesn't have an official function, but he still controls the party behind the scenes and can end the coalition government if he wants to. The actual prime minister is an outsider non politician called Dick Schoof. 


The entire coalition government has been pretty unstable for as long as they've been in power. One of the political parties in the coalition has pretty much fallen apart. Lots of big disagreements, and with a coalition, you do need to compromise. 


So right now, Geert Wilders has withdrawn his party from the coalition, triggering new elections. He says it's because the coalition doesn't have a plan on how to handle immigration. The other parties in the coalition government say that they were working on it and that Wilders just pulled the rug out from under them.

andersoortigeik

Answer:  the Dutch constitution allows members of parliament continue to receive their compensation even when the parliament is dissolved. They get more attention and enjoy publicly fighting with each other more than actually solving problems for citizens.  So since it's easier and more fun to be in a cycle of elections and dissolution and since they get paid the same, they make the logical choice to serve themselves rather than the citizens.

placeboski

Ireland's population has grown 8 percent in the six years between the last two censuses. Paired with a (centerist) neoliberal government that believes the market will fix housing, and property tax is rude, it's causing big problems in housing. We get an unusual proportion of high-earning immigrants, which is great for taxation, but locals get priced out of housing.

As the percentage of 30 year olds living with their parents has gone from 41% to 65% in the last decade...that might change. None of the political parties tolerate bigotry, which helps. But, we have a very functional democracy, so a change of government may fix many of the housing problems.

Note: Europe is a big place. Countries are wildly different there. More different than Alaska and Florida.

bigvalen

As a Spaniard, I can tell you that in Spain people appreciate Latin American immigrants a lot more than any other kind of  immigrants, because they are latin, catholic, they speak our language, we share a lot of cultural traits and we're connected for historical reasons too. They're usually not as educated as the average Spaniard, they're usually more sexist, homophobic, but when they come to Spain they tend assimilate our rules pretty well and they integrate and embrace our traditions. They're the main source of immigration in Spain.

From Africa, black people don't cause much trouble in Spain either, they're usually very hard working people.

Moroccans however, people usually don't have a good opinion of them.

I think the real problem is not immigration itself, but when immigrants don't integrate in the local culture. Religion plays a big role here IMO. But immigrants are not the problem. The sons of those immigrants that don't integrate and create here a small version of their country of origin, that will be the problem. The immigrants usually come looking for a better life and they come from a place so bad that they are happy with very little. But their sons will be europeans, they will grow up in poor neighborhoods, different cultures, they'll feel rejected, and they'll feel like we owe them. And I think we're seeing this already in countries like France and Belgium.

Eyelbo

It starts to become a problem the moment the immigrating people refuse to integrate and work. I see it in a couple of western countries already. Also, it's pretty alarming there are whole districts in some European countries so dangerous even police is afraid to visit them.   


I'm pretty sure that as long as all the immigrants were willing to integrate (learn the local language, accept culture and law), majority of natives would have no problems with them at all (of course, there always will be some loud minority which won't like them nonetheless but they obviously don't speak for everybody).   


Imagine getting somewhere illegally, having no respect for the local people's culture or laws and demanding they let you live off their welfare system. Do you think the locals would be happy about it or would you even feel good about yourself? Didn't think so.

martiNordi

Legal Immigration of people with skills and willing to integrate would of course be useful. Unfortunately Europe gets a lot of illegal immigration from an undesirable demographic (only young men with very problematic values and no skills useful in a knowledge based economy). In some small countries the yearly influx of these type of immigrants is half the yearly birth rate. That's a systemic problem that's going to blow up in the foreseeable future.

Immigration can totally be good! An example is my parents. They immigrated legally to England from Hong Kong and integrated into the culture of the country. They contributed to the economy positively while raising two daughters.

But immigration can be harmful as well. Immigrants who come across illegally, refuse to integrate, and bring their backwards cultures/practices with them are a severe problem. They're often freeloaders who only take up space/resources in the country without contributing. And how can you be British if your first act in the country is a crime? I also recognise that the problem of refusing to integrate and bringing across harmful practices can be a hallmark of legal immigrants as well, which is why I personally think we ought to better curate the countries we accept immigrants from. Some of these migrants actively put British citizens in danger. 

For example, as a British Chinese woman, the (sometimes almost violent) harassment I faced during the pandemic came by and large from Muslim and African men. I really have a hard time believing that we should be bringing more of these people in the country when there are others who could actually contribute positively culturally and economically to the country. Just my two cents as a British gal!

chainrule73

most migrants are from MENAPT countries and at NO point in their lives are they providing a net positive to the states finances. [source](https://inquisitivebird.substack.com/p/the-effects-of-immigration-in-denmark)

you may solve the demographic problem, lowering the age, but when those people don't work then you're only worsening the actual problem

not even speaking of the cultural issues these migrants create. criminal parallel societies created by failed integration.

cia_nagger249

The question at the core is, what immigration does Europe attract and in what historical context. You see, Europe is not a blank slate, it has history with most of the world, that spill into migration and that is particularly true for North African and Middle Eastern muslim migrants. Something that also has changed over the past 50 years or so. You see, the first big wave of migration to Europe from these areas happened in the 60ties, when most of Europe had humming economies, the West was still seen as a role model by most societies around the world and migrants coming to Europe did not hold a negative view to their host societies.  


This has changed profoundly especially during the last two decades and are at the core of why many in Europe see migration from these countries as negative and there was a long process that caused this.  


1. Non integration (migrant side): One of the core problems with migration everywhere around the world and Europe is no different here from places like the US is the long process of integration. If you look at older studies on how the US assimilated different migrant groups you see that it took at least three generations until the migrant groups were mostly assimilated. This did not or only partly happened in Europe, one reason is a radical change of how media and information work. Mass migration to Europe occurred in a time that satelite TV and later the internet became available - many migrant communities are deeply connected to their not too distant home countries. They watch Turkish/Arab ... TV, listen to influencers from those countries and they visit their extended families at least once a year and can do a facetime with their relatives every other day. So additionally to the typical diaspora communities many that came in the 80ties and later never disconnected from their home countries (and those coming earlier always were deemed "Guest workers" that would go home eventually).  

2. Non integration (host side): Add to this a less than positive attitude towards certain migrant groups. Firstly people were seen as quasi Barbarians that came from former colonies or other exotic places. Knowledge was small, interest in the newcomers too, all covered in chauvinistic attitudes that easily lent themselves to xenophobia. Yeah and to be honest, for most of Europe it wasn't the elite that migrated but illiterate farmhands that looked for jobs in European factories as cheap workers. Also people who were expected to go home after some time.   

3. Economic downturn: Then came the 70ties and 80ties with the oil price shock and sudden end of full employment in many European countries. And the migrants deemed necessary a decade earlier suddenly became competitors for the blue collar jobs that became increasingly scarcer in some places.   

4. Decline of the West/Europe as a role model - Rise of Islamic Fundamentalism:  
Yeah and at the end of the 90ties, that already saw some of the ruptures at the seems get obvious, you had 9/11 and the rise of Islamic terrorism and its Panislamic message on the one side and Islamic countries openly using their diasporas as propaganda targets for their very nationalistic aims (looking at you Turkey).  

5. So arriving in the here and now, you have a bunch of things going on. A large group of migrants that just go do their everyday jobs and fitting into societies. But you also have large diaspora groups that although having been here for 3-4 generations still feel absolutly foreign (to themselves and to the host countries). Their ideologies hardly match with the general ethos of the constitutions of their host countries and they have developed an anti western outlook, while right wing groups and to a big extend more and more parts of the general public see them as outright danger to European societies and depict them as such. So the divergence gets ever more radical. And every new migrant (especially Muslims) is seen as an attack to the respective country.  

6. Culture war/Clash of Civilizations: Some on both sides put this in the context of a millenia long struggle for dominance. Some Muslims see it as finally conquering Europeb by means of migration and higher birth rates, some on the European side frame it as a continuation of the Muslim attacks that haunted Europe between 660 and the early 19th century. This is framed not just as a conflict but is seen as part of an outright war between Civilizations, like the Neo Con author Samuel Huntington already wrote in the early 90ties.   


So where are we standing today. Europe is rapidly aging and needs migrants to stem this development. On the other hand, a majority (and I believe this is very much established by polling) is adamantly against further Muslim migration, citing security reasons and incompatibility with societal and cultural norms as main reasons for this (remember Europe is one of the few places in the world, that is mostly secular, a deeply religious migrant population is a challenge to its core ideas).  


So either Europe can attract migrants form elsewhere, which effectively limits it to parts of South East Asia, South America and Southern Africa - each of them coming with certain problems themselves or it will rapidly run into huge problems to uphold its social systems.

Zelvik_451

In Spain the only reason we haven't had huge population decline is because of immigration. We have an aging population and low birth rates, much like Japan. What we need to do is allow more of them to work legally and pay taxes.

bootherizer5942

Because some people don't understand that they have to (or should be forced to) leave the shit that ruined their countries at the door when coming to Europe. The problem is some people will call you racist for trying to implement such policies because they can't distinguish between actual culture that is welcomed (like food, music, clothing, dances etc.) and shitty behavior (like misogyny, violence and religious extremism).

On top of that, most countries suck at integration because they let migrants live all among themselves in rundown ghettos while giving them endless social benefits with no language requirements and no incentive to get employed. Also, there is this vicious cycle that is the fight between far-right nutjobs and extremist migrants that just stirs the fire even more.

RAdu2005FTW

Immigration definitely has value and the aging population will cause a temporary problem. But spoken as a Dutch person ; our country is too small for the size of our population, and our population keeps growing due to immigration. We  have a major housing problem. We cannot produce enough food to feed our own country. Our sparse nature is threatened on all sides. There shouldn't be this many people on this small a patch of land, especially not when it's likely that part of that land will disappear due to climate change in the coming century...

Farahild

Ehhh...

It's not "all migrants", quite contrary.

It's the minority of people, who migrated using the opportunity of Syrian war and jump on the bandwagon of uncontrolled migration combined with internal European infighting.

The law that prohibits returning the migrants who throw they passport away is also laughable.

There's also a lot to blame in European authorities. If you band all migrants of one descent in one crowded, underdeveloped district - ghetto is expected to happen.

Europe needs migration and millions are willing to come here, even poorer parts of Europe, but we need to have a right to select migrants and have resources to take care of them, not let anybody washed on Italy's and Greek shore in.

Marcin222111

Because the numbers are so high, it's led to division and segregation. There is no integration among some communities. In certain cities all the White people live in one area, all the black people live in another area, all the Muslims live in another area. And it seems increasingly that immigrants are identifying more and more with their homeland than with Britain. Particularly among African and middle Eastern/South Asian communities. We have also imported cultural grief between cultures such as Pakistani/Indian grievances, Sikh/Hindu/Muslim grievances. Increasing violence among different communities and the police are scared to tackle it for fear of being thought of as racist. Just look at what happened in Telford, Rotherham, Oldham, Bradford and countries other Northern towns to young girls. 

Also I don't know where you're from, but Britain is a tiny island. England has already has a population density similar to India's. And a housing crisis. Where the hell are we going to put millions of immigrants? Our infrastructure is, what, 50 years old most of it? People already struggle to find doctors appointments and school places for their kids. Do you think that gets easier when millions of immigrants show up to?

sonofeast11

Why? Because laws about rescues at sea and asylum's rights force my country (Italy) to take in every random guy who pays $$$ to human traffickers to cross the Mediterranean, regardless of their legal rights to enter the country.

If we were able to actually select and decide who is immigrating to my country that would be ideal. Unfortunately we are not: we are just forced to accommodate any rando on the planet who pays human traffickers to try and land on our shores.

DemoneScimmia

Immigration is a good thing, it's when they expect to move to a completely different culture and act like they are still in their original country.

If they integrated with the culture and changed what is not accepted then there would be very few issues, it's when they set up seperate communities and try to enact their own rules that it becomes a problem.

In the UK immigaration has been an amazing thing in the past, our national dish is a curry for example, but with a rapid influx from certain areas has lead to small pockets of crime, harrassment and a general feeling of not belonging as the area someone might have grown up in has changed with a majority of immigrants arriving.

But it's seen fantastic benefits too, lots of those from the middle east work in the medical sector and it's more common to have a doctor not originally from the UK.

Personally I want immigration to continue, but at a controlled rate. Those who will benefit the country rather than try to change it to their way. And as you mentioned, it's needed with a declining birth rate and aging population.

longsite2

Not considering the economical and social impact (a relevant percent of the country's population suddenly added will lead to a plethora of issues like housing, jobs, food demand, etc), i think a very relevant issue is the ability of some migrants to integrate into the local culture and values. 
Just an example that is very close to the heart, as it happened to my gf: when you live in a liberal society and dress whatever way you want, nobody from your own country bats an eye, people just don't care or maybe you might get some admiring looks. Then suddenly, on your way to work, you have a group of a few dozen men which are devout muslims,   shouting at you for dressing like a whore.
This is just an example, but you get the idea.
Nobody would care where you're from or what the colour of your skin, religion is - as long as you actually adhere to the values of the society you've chosen to be your home.

GoguBalauru

It all depends on where they come from and what skills and backgrounds they have. Will they benefit our society? Will they integrate quickly into our society? Common sense says that if we got hard-working nurses from the Philippines knocking on the door, we might want to roll out the welcome mat. We would be stupid not to. I mean, we are in dire need of nurses, and people from Southeast Asia have a good track record of integrating well into our society.

disneyvillain

It’s a complex multifaceted issue. Generally, while immigration may benefit the country by filling up labour, especially low-skilled, shortages, it can also resut in many issues regarding migrant integration, at its worst resulting in significant rise of crime rate. Generally, I would ideally like to keep extra-European immigration fairly low, especially from the more problematic countries, mostly letting migrants in to fill up shortages in necessary and qualified rather than low-skilled sectors. Instead, European countries should try to incentivize natural population growth, which is obviously an incredibly hard thing to achieve

Tensoll

The aging population argument is false because immigrants age too. So that has to be continuous over the generations to work, theoretically. In practice the mass immigration is a huge net loss economically. The immigrants Western European countries get pay less taxes, take more welfare, take more health care, take more effort to educate lower, take more government at not for profit services in general, including social housing (which is private in NL) too. It's simply more people for society to take car of with a smaller part of the people.

And that's just the economics. Impact on social cohesion, something the USA doesn't really do, is much bigger. It creates societies within society, we have to show solidarity with groups that don't show solidarity with us. We even get hostility, a huge chunk identifies with their parents citizenship. Many hang on to their culture of their religion ruling the streets, and therefore are not respecting the freedom of religion that allowed them to be here in the first place. 

Only a minority of the immigrants escapes that. I celebrate those, that's the part I and other indigenous people usually deal with. It's nice to think and act like they represent mass immigration. But I'm afraid that's not the case, that's just a minority and we shouldn't let that obscure the problem with the majority we don't have contact on an individual level with.

ErnestoVuig

I just address the

&gt; Immigration can be good, especially in ageing countries where a lower tax-base might lead to worse services and worse economy.

Yes of course. But in a highly developed economy with a big welfare state, immigrants need to work and pay taxes. The taxes need to be higher than the cost of each person, which is not the case.

Many are unemployed and those who work have low wages. 

A Brochmann 2 rapporten (in Norway) concluded that a non western immigrant costs around 400k euro in total Kostnaden for det offentlige av flere innvandrere - Statistisk sentralbyrå https://www.ssb.no/offentlig-sektor/artikler-og-publikasjoner/_attachment/151652?_ts=142b30fbf58

Similar numbers has been calculated in Sweden.

Of course, one solution is that immigrants need to work more, but that has been tried for a very long time

bagge

For decades immigration took place. Unfortunately there where massive problems like (organized) crime, deteriorating neighborhoods and disproportionately use of social services. After decades of these problems people are resentful towards immigration.

What we need is a government who plan ahead and make it financial possible to have a family. The last thing we need is more random people moving to this continent who don’t value our freedoms, our culture and way of living.

People in general tend to fear the difference, it happens all around the world. When suddenly groups of people of a very different culture arrive culture shocks happen and people become reactive. Mix that with a bunch of good old Eurocentrism, a bit of racism, the historical division between Christians and Muslims and populist rhetoric, and you have the perfect situation for people being against immigrants in Europe.  
(edit: some immigrants are unwilling to integrate in the societies where they immigrate, which fuels the cultural shock, it's not only locals being reactive)  


I have to say that immigration can also cause real issues too, it is not only because "people are racist". The job market is not immune to the arrival of a lot of people who expect way worse job conditions than locals, and the arrival of mostly poorer people can cause issues regarding safety. Adding to that, the concentration of most immigrants in certain neighbourhoods can cause the formation of ghettos, which then after a couple years can be very problematic and difficult to solve.

frenandoafondo

The Dutch government collapsed after a dispute over stringent immigration policies, reflecting growing far-right political influence.

Dutch Government Collapse Due to Immigration Policy Dispute

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